. It's this 22-acre site of free-standing limestone, some rising 20 feet in the air, some weighing 50 tons. The big question is, did any of these recipes, did any of this wine spiking actually make its way into some paleo-Christian ceremony. But I'm pressing you because that's my job. The most influential religious historian of the twentieth century, Huston Smith, once referred to it as the "best-kept secret" in history. And then at some point they go inland. 1,672. So in the mountains and forests from Greece to Rome, including the Holy Land and Galilee. I mean, this is what I want to do with some of my remaining days on this planet, is take a look at all these different theories. All that will be announced through our mailing list. In this way, the two traditions coexisted in a syncretic form for some time before . And this is what I present to the world. BRIAN MURARESKU: Now we're cooking with grease, Dr. Stang. Is this only Marcus? 474, ?] Well, let's get into it then. It was a pilgrimage site. That's the big question. And did the earliest Christians inherit the same secret tradition? I'm paraphrasing this one. So in my mind, it was the first real hard scientific data to support this hypothesis, which, as you alluded to at the beginning, only raises more questions. Whether there's a psychedelic tradition-- I mean, there are some suggestive paintings. Not in every single case, obviously. And he was actually going out and testing some of these ancient chalices. So I don't write this to antagonize them or the church, the people who, again, ushered me into this discipline and into these questions. Perhaps more generally, you could just talk about other traditions around the Mediterranean, North African, or, let's even say Judaism. And the one thing that unites both of those worlds in this research called the pagan continuity hypothesis, the one thing we can bet on is the sacred language of Greek. But I mentioned that we've become friends because it is the prerogative of friends to ask hard questions. But this clearly involved some kind of technical know-how and the ability to concoct these things that, in order to keep them safe and efficacious, would not have been very widespread, I don't think. How does, in other words, how does religion sit with science? But I think the broader question of what's the reception to this among explicitly religious folk and religious leaders? Not just in Italy, but as kind of the headquarters for the Mediterranean. So the closer we get to the modern period, we're starting to find beer, wine mixed with interesting things. So, like, they're wonderstruck, or awestruck by their libations and their incense. And it was their claim that when the hymn to Demeter, one of these ancient records that records, in some form, the proto-recipe for this kykeon potion, which I call like a primitive beer, in the hymn to Demeter, they talk about ingredients like barley, water, and mint. And I started reading the studies from Pat McGovern at the University of Pennsylvania. And so the big question is what was happening there? That's the promise in John's gospel, in John 6:54-55, that I quote in the book. It's not just Cana. "The Jews" are not after Ye. And so in some of these psychedelic trials, under the right conditions, I do see genuine religious experiences. And in his book [? Eusebius, third into the fourth century, is also talking about them-- it's a great Greek word, [SPEAKING GREEK]. Is taking all these disciplines, whether it's your discipline or archaeochemistry or hard core botany, biology, even psychopharmacology, putting it all together and taking a look at this mystery, this puzzle, using the lens of psychedelics as a lens, really, to investigate not just the past but the future and the mystery of human consciousness. These were Greek-- I've seen them referred to as Greek Vikings by Peter Kingsley, Vikings who came from Ionia. A rebirth into what? So again, if there were an early psychedelic sacrament that was being suppressed, I'd expect that the suppressors would talk about it. And her best guess is that it was like this open access sanctuary. So the Eastern Aegean. It's funny to see that some of the first basilicas outside Rome are popping up here, and in and around Pompeii. let's take up your invitation and move from Dionysus to early Christianity. CHARLES STANG: My name is Charles Stang, and I'm the director of the Center for the Study of World Religions here at Harvard Divinity School. And I think oversight also comes in handy within organized religion. One attendee has asked, "How have religious leaders reacted so far to your book? I have a deep interest in mysticism, and I've had mystical experiences, which I don't think are very relevant. CHARLES STANG: Wonderful. And I asked her openly if we could test some of the many, many containers that they have, some on display, and many more in repository there. So those are all possibly different questions to ask and answer. Thank you, sir. Church of the Saints Faustina and Liberata, view from the outside with the entrance enclosure, at "Sante" place, Capo di Ponte (Italy). BRIAN MURARESKU: It just happens to show up. CHARLES STANG: So it may be worth mentioning, for those who are attending who haven't read the book, that you asked, who I can't remember her name, the woman who is in charge of the Eleusis site, whether some of the ritual vessels could be tested, only to discover-- tested for the remains of whatever they held, only to learn that those vessels had been cleaned and that no more vessels were going to be unearthed. Do you think that the Christians as a nascent cult adapted a highly effective psycho technology that was rattling . You mentioned, too, early churchmen, experts in heresies by the name of Irenaeus of Lyons and Hippolytus of Rome. But when it comes to that Sunday ritual, it just, whatever is happening today, it seems different from what may have motivated the earliest Christians, which leads me to very big questions. I mean, in the absence of the actual data, that's my biggest question. And does it line up with the promise from John's gospel that anyone who drinks this becomes instantly immortal? CHARLES STANG: OK. He's the god of wine. Because even though it's a very long time ago, Gobekli Tepe, interestingly, has some things in common with Eleusis, like the worship of the grain, the possibility of brewing, the notion of a pilgrimage, and interaction with the dead. Despite its popular appeal as a New York Times Bestseller, TIK fails to make a compelling case for its grand theory of the "pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist" due to. And by the way, I'm not here trying to protect Christianity from the evidence of psychedelic use. And then was, in some sense, the norm, the original Eucharist, and that it was then suppressed by orthodox, institutional Christianity, who persecuted, especially the women who were the caretakers of this tradition. The only reason I went to college was to study classics. And if you're a good Christian or a good Catholic, and you're consuming that wine on any given Sunday, why are you doing that? #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More Now I understand and I appreciate the pharmaceutical industry's ability to distribute this as medicine for those who are looking for alternatives, alternative treatments for depression and anxiety and PTSD and addiction and end of life distress. But the point being, the religion of brewing seems to pop up at the very beginning of civilization itself, or the very beginning of monumental engineering at this world's first sanctuary. 32:57 Ancient languages and Brian's education . Klaus Schmidt, who was with the German Archaeological Institute, called this a sanctuary and called these T-shaped pillars representations of gods. But we do know that the initiates made this pilgrimage from Athens to Eleusis, drunk the potion, the kykeon, had this very visionary event-- they all talk about seeing something-- and after which they become immortal. So I'm trying to build the case-- and for some reason in my research, it kept coming back to Italy and Rome, which is why I focus on Hippolytus. I mean, about 25 years ago, actually. By which I mean that the Gospel of John suggests that at the very least, the evangelist hoped to market Christianity to a pagan audience by suggesting that Jesus was somehow equivalent to Dionysus, and that the Eucharist, his sacrament of wine, was equivalent to Dionysus's wine. Because every time I think about ancient wine, I am now immediately thinking about wine that is spiked. I know that's another loaded phrase. And so in the epilogue, I say we simply do not know the relationship between this site in Spain and Eleusis, nor do we know what was happening at-- it doesn't automatically mean that Eleusis was a psychedelic rite. And so that opened a question for me. Now that doesn't mean, as Brian was saying, that then suggests that that's the norm Eucharist. So let's talk about the future of religion, and specifically the future of Roman Catholicism. They linked the idea of witches to an imagined organized sect which was a danger to the Christian commonwealth. But Egypt seems to not really be hugely relevant to the research. Now, it doesn't have to be the Holy Grail that was there at the Last Supper, but when you think about the sacrament of wine that is at the center of the world's biggest religion of 2.5 billion people, the thing that Pope Francis says is essential for salvation, I mean, how can we orient our lives around something for which there is little to no physical data? To some degree, I think you're looking back to southern Italy from the perspective of the supremacy of Rome, which is not the case in the first century. If beer was there that long ago, what kind of beer was it? Not because it was brand new data. So I really follow the scholarship of Enriqueta Pons, who is the archaeologist on site there, at this Greek sanctuary that we're talking about in Catalonia, Mas Castellar des Pontos. And I think it's very important to be very honest with the reader and the audience about what we know and what we don't. We call it ego dissolution, things of that nature. I expect there will be. That's one narrative that I feel is a little sensational. To assess this hypothesis and, perhaps, to push it further, has required years of dogged and, at times, discouraging works in archives and archaeology. I was not going to put a book out there that was sensationalist. BRIAN MURARESKU: Good one. And we know the mysteries were there. And I wonder whether the former narrative serves the interests of the latter. So the Greek god of wine, intoxication. But I don't hold-- I don't hang my hat on that claim. And the reason I find that a worthy avenue of pursuit is because when you take a step back and look at the Greek of the Gospels, especially the Greek of John, which is super weird, what I see based on Dennis MacDonald's scholarship that you mentioned-- and others-- when you do the exegesis of John's gospel, there's just lots of vocabulary and lots of imagery that doesn't appear elsewhere. And that's what I get into in detail in the book. Brought to you by Wealthfront high-yield savings account, Peloton Row premium rower for an efficient workout, and You Need A Budget cult-favorite money management app.. Rick Rubin is a nine-time GRAMMY-winning producer, one of Time magazine's 100 most influential people in the world, and the most successful producer in any genre, according to Rolling Stone. And my favorite line of the book is, "The lawyer in me won't sleep until that one chalice, that one container, that one vessel comes to light in an unquestionable Christian context.". What the Greeks were actually saying there is that it was barley infected with ergot, which is this natural fungus that infects cereal crops. So whatever was happening there was important. So this is interesting. Then there's what were the earliest Christians doing with the Eucharist. Despite its popular appeal as a New York Times Bestseller, TIK fails to make a compelling case for its grand theory of the "pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist" due to recurring overreach and historical distortion, failure to consider relevant research on shamanism and Christianity, and presentation of speculation as fact So when you take a step back, as you well know, there was a Hellenic presence all over the ancient Mediterranean. 36:57 Drug-spiked wine . And when we know so much about ancient wine and how very different it was from the wine of today, I mean, what can we say about the Eucharist if we're only looking at the texts? Listen to #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More, an episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, easily on Podbay - the best podcast player on the web. You obviously think these are powerful substances with profound effects that track with reality. BRIAN MURARESKU: I wish I could answer that question. Now, that is part of your kind of interest in democratizing mysticism, but it also, curiously, cuts out the very people who have been preserving this tradition for centuries, namely, on your own account, this sort of invisible or barely visible lineage of women. You become one with Christ by drinking that. I took this to Greg [? So I want to propose that we stage this play in two acts. We have some inscriptions. CHARLES STANG: So in some sense, you're feeling almost envy for the experiences on psychedelics, which is to say you've never experienced the indwelling of Christ or the immediate knowledge of your immortality in the sacrament. I try to be careful to always land on a lawyer's feet and be very honest with you and everybody else about where this goes from here. I am so fortunate to have been selected to present my thesis, "Mythology and Psychedelics: Taking the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis a Step Further" at. Including, all the way back to Gobekli Tepe, which is why I mentioned that when we first started chatting. So it wasn't just a random place to find one of these spiked wines. You may have already noticed one such question-- not too hard. If the Dionysian one is psychedelic, does it really make its way into some kind of psychedelic Christianity? And I guess my biggest question, not necessarily for you, but the psychedelic community, for what it's worth, or those who are interested in this stuff is how do we make this experience sacred? Now, Brian managed to write this book while holding down a full time practice in international law based in Washington DC. We have plays like the Bacchi from Euripides, where we can piece together some of this. And so how far should this investigation go? I've no doubt that Brian has unearthed and collected a remarkable body of evidence, but evidence of what, exactly? She joins me for most events and meetings. In 1950, Martin Luther King, Jr. wrote " The Influence of the Mystery Religions on Christianity " which describes the continuity from the Pagan, pre-Christian world to what would become early Christianity in the decades and centuries before Jesus Religion & Mystical Experiences, Wine I would love to see these licensed, regulated, retreat centers be done in a way that is medically sound and scientifically rigorous. According to Muraresku, this work, which "presents the pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist," addresses two fundamental questions: "Before the rise of Christianity, did the Ancient Greeks consume a secret psychedelic sacrament during their most famous and well-attended religious rituals? His aim when he set out on this journey 12 years ago was to assess the validity of a rather old, but largely discredited hypothesis, namely, that some of the religions of the ancient Mediterranean, perhaps including Christianity, used a psychedelic sacrament to induce mystical experiences at the border of life and death, and that these psychedelic rituals were just the tip of the iceberg, signs of an even more ancient and pervasive religious practice going back many thousands of years. And at some point in my narrative, I do include mention of Gobekli Tepe, for example, which is essentially twice the age of Stonehenge. I expect we will find it. I write it cognizant of the fact that the Eucharist doesn't work for many, many people. They minimized or completely removed the Jewish debates found in the New Testament, and they took on a style that was more palatable to the wider pagan world. So why the silence from the heresiologists on a psychedelic sacrament? The Gnostics did have continuity with paganism. Brendon Benz presents an alternative hypothesis to recent scholarship which has hypothesized that Israel consisted of geographical, economic . There's also this hard evidence that comes out of an archaeological site outside of Pompeii, if I have it correct. 101. Pagan polemicists reversed the Biblical story of the Israelites' liberation from Egyptian bondage, portraying a negative image of Israelite origins and picturing them as misanthropes and atheists. Tim Ferriss is a self-experimenter and bestselling author, best known for The 4-Hour Workweek, which has been translated into 40+ languages. Things like fasting and sleep deprivation and tattooing and scarification and, et cetera, et cetera. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of " tikkun olam "repairing and improving What does God mean? I'm currently reading The Immortality Key by Brian Muraresku and find this 2nd/3rd/4th century AD time period very interesting, particularly with regards to the adoptions of pagan rituals and practices by early Christianity. In fact, he found beer, wine, and mead all mixed together in a couple of different places. 7:30 The three pillars to the work: the Eucharist as a continuation of the pharmako and Dionysian mysteries; the Pagan continuity theory; and the idea that through the mysteries "We can die before we die so that when we die we do not die" 13:00 What does "blood of Christ" actually mean; the implied and literal cannibalism Certainly these early churchmen used whatever they could against the forms of Christian practice they disapproved of, especially those they categorized as Gnostic. So I got a copy of it from the Library of Congress, started reading through, and there, in fact, I was reading about this incredible discovery from the '90s. Others would argue that they are perfectly legal sacraments, at least in the Native American church with the use of peyote, or in the UDV or Santo Daime, I mean, ayahuasca does work in some syncretic Christian form, right? There's a good number of questions that are very curious why you are insisting on remaining a psychedelic virgin. BRIAN MURARESKU: I would say I've definitely experienced the power of the Christ and the Holy Spirit. Well, wonderful. And you find terracotta heads that could or could not be representative of Demeter and Persephone, the two goddesses to whom the mysteries of Eleusis were dedicated. Just from reading Dioscorides and reading all the different texts, the past 12 years have absolutely transformed the way I think about wine. But I think there's a decent scientific foothold to begin that work. But they charge Marcus specifically, not with a psychedelic Eucharist, but the use of a love potion. Here is how I propose we are to proceed. And there are legitimate scholars out there who say, because John wanted to paint Jesus in the light of Dionysus, present him as the second coming of this pagan God. And she talks about the visions that transformed the way she thinks about herself. What does that have to do with Christianity? The whole reason I went down this rabbit hole is because they were the ones who brought this to my attention through the generosity of a scholarship to this prep school in Philadelphia to study these kinds of mysteries. And the quote you just read from Burkert, it's published by Harvard University Press in 1985 as Greek Religion. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. What was discovered, as far as I can tell, from your treatment of it, is essentially an ancient pharmacy in this house. Why don't we turn the tables and ask you what questions you think need to be posed? According to Muraresku, this work, BOOK REVIEW which "presents the pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist," addresses two fundamental questions: "Before the rise of Christianity, did the Ancient Greeks consume a secret psychedelic sacrament during their most famous and well-attended religious rituals? So I have my concerns about what's about to happen in Oregon and the regulation of psilocybin for therapeutic purposes. That's because Brian and I have become friends these past several months, and I'll have more to say about that in a moment. I fully expect we will find it. This event is entitled, Psychedelics, The Ancient Religion With No Name? Then what was the Gospel of John, how did it interpret the Eucharist and market it, and so on. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. So how to put this? CHARLES STANG: OK. They're mixing potions. For those who didn't have the time or the money or the temerity to travel all the way to Eleusis from Spain, here's your off-site campus, right? Thank you all for joining us, and I hope to see many of you later this month for our next event. And I'm happy to see we have over 800 people present for this conversation. We look forward to hosting Chacruna's founder and executive director, Bia Labate, for a lecture on Monday, March 8. And he found some beer and wine-- that was a bit surprising. It seems entirely believable to me that we have a potion maker active near Pompeii. And Brian, it would be helpful for me to know whether you are more interested in questions that take up the ancient world or more that deal with this last issue, the sort of contemporary and the future. Well, the reason I mention Hippolytus and Marcus and focus on that in my evidence is because there's evidence of the Valentinians, who influenced Marcus, in and around Rome. You know, it's an atheist using theological language to describe what happened to her. So I'll speak in language that you and our good colleague Greg [? Because ergot is just very common. And I think there are lots of reasons to believe that. And the big question is, what is this thing doing there in the middle of nowhere? It is my great pleasure to welcome Brian Muraresku to the Center. I don't think we have found it. There's all kinds of reasons I haven't done it. And so that's what motivated my search here. And I think that that's the real question here. But in any case, Ruck had his career, well, savaged, in some sense, by the reaction to his daring to take this hypothesis seriously, this question seriously. Where are the drugs? If you die before you die, you won't die when you die. OK-- maybe one of those ancient beers. CHARLES STANG: OK. I mean, I wish it were easier. And so in my afterword, I present this as a blip on the archaeochemical radar. Brought to you by CHARLES STANG: OK. Now let's move into the Greek mystery. Which, again, what I see are small groups of people getting together to commune with the dead. Did the ancient Greeks use drugs to find God? A lot of Christianity, as you rightly point out, I mean, it was an Eastern phenomenon, all over the eastern Mediterranean. And I-- in my profession, we call this circumstantial, and I get it. Because at my heart, I still consider myself a good Catholic boy. And we had a great chat, a very spirited chat about the mysteries and the psychedelic hypothesis. Now you're a good sport, Brian. They followed Platonic (and other Greeks) philosophy. And I, for one, look forward to a time when I can see him in person for a beer, ergotized beer or not, if he ever leaves Uruguay. And what about the alleged democratization with which you credit the mysteries of Dionysus, or the role of women in that movement? And inside that beer was all kinds of vegetable matter, like wheat, oats, and sedge and lily and flax and various legumes. Up until that point I really had very little knowledge of psychedelics, personal or literary or otherwise. he goes out on a limb and says that black nightshade actually causes [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH], which is not unpleasant visions, i.e. And so I cite a Pew poll, for example, that says something like 69% of American Catholics do not believe in transubstantiation, which is the defining dogma of the church, the idea that the bread and wine literally becomes the flesh and blood. I mean, so Walter Burkert was part of the reason that kept me going on. What Brian labels the religion with no name. Not because it's not there, because it hasn't been tested. With more than 35 years of experience in the field of Education dedicated to help students, teachers and administrators in both public and private institutions at school, undergraduate and graduate level. I mean, lots of great questions worthy of further investigation. Nage ?] In May of last year, researchers published what they believe is the first archaeochemical data for the use of psychoactive drugs in some form of early Judaism. So when Hippolytus is calling out the Marcosians, and specifically women, consecrating this alternative Eucharist in their alternative proto-mass, he uses the Greek word-- and we've talked about this before-- but he uses the Greek word [SPEAKING GREEK] seven times in a row, by the way, without specifying which drugs he's referring to. You might find it in a cemetery in Mexico. When you start testing, you find things. In this episode, Brian C. Muraresku, who holds a degree from Brown University in Latin, Greek and Sanskrit,  joins Breht to discuss his fascinating book "The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name", a groundbreaking dive into the use of hallucinogens in ancient Greece, the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, the role of the Eucharist in early Christianity, the . BRIAN MURARESKU: Dr. Stang, an erudite introduction as ever. But unfortunately, it doesn't connect it to Christianity. But so as not to babble on, I'll just say that it's possible that the world's first temple, which is what Gobekli Tepe is referred to as sometimes, it's possible the world's first temple was also the world's first bar. And so for me, this was a hunt through the catacombs and archives and libraries, doing my sweet-talking, and trying to figure out what was behind some of those locked doors. And shouldn't we all be asking that question? It was-- Eleusis was state-administered, a somewhat formal affair. 40:15 Witches, drugs, and the Catholic Church . It's not the case in the second century. And her answer was that they'd all been cleaned or treated for conservation purposes. In the Classics world, there's a pagan continuity hypothesis with the very origin of Christianity, and many overt references to Greek plays in the Gospel of John. A profound knowledge of visionary plants, herbs, and fungi passed from one generation to the next, ever since the Stone Age? And what the FDA can do is make sure that they're doing it in a way that it's absolutely safe and efficacious. What's different about the Dionysian mysteries, and what evidence, direct or indirect, do we have about the wine of Dionysus being psychedelic? And I think it's proof of concept-- just proof of concept-- for investing serious funding, and attention into the actual search for these kinds of potions. But with what were they mixed, and to what effect? So I think this was a minority of early Christians. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. And I want to say to those who are still assembled here that I'm terribly sorry that we can't get to all your questions. 48:01 Brian's psychedelic experiences . President and CEO, First Southeast Financial Corp and First Federal Savings and Loan Director, Carolina First Bank and The South Financial Group To this day I remain a psychedelic virgin quite proudly, and I spent the past 12 years, ever since that moment in 2007, researching what Houston Smith, perhaps one of the most influential religious historians of the 20th century, would call the best kept secret in history. Its proponents maintain that the affable, plump old fellow associated with Christmas derives from the character of Arctic medical practitioners. In the first half, we'll cover topics ranging from the Eleusinian Mysteries, early Christianity, and the pagan continuity hypothesis to the work of philosopher and psychologist William James. I did go straight to [INAUDIBLE] Papangelli in Eleusis, and I went to the museum. Like, what is this all about?