There are four major handgun founding factors. Sawed-off Ammo Type: 12 gauge. Two shots were within an inch of his heart. Both are great calibers. Different bullets and guns have different patterns. Not everyone can adequately conceal a full-sized Colt 1911. What you provide is false true and true. LE, south LA and Watts for 8 1/2 out of 15 years. I have got to wonder about this Neil Clapperton quoted above. I have several calibers, personally I like my Sig 239 40cal as my sidearm ! My feeling is that the gun for you will be as individual as you are. of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. Is the debate on 9mm vs. .45 (or .40) settled then? And they call themselves a forensics expert.. Long time reloader right here as well which is why I couldnt believe when I read what I did in that other articleclearly someone that doesnt understand how these things work!! Yes, yeas I have. He died in our E.R. There are already documented instances where .45 ACP also failed to get reliable stops on a bad guy. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. When the .223 exits the barrel of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. I carry a S&W 9SDVE which I find can hold a good tight group. I thought a 55 115lb girl with small hands would want a .380, so I was surprise when she chose a Walther PPS in 9mm. You may as well go off and say Ill just take a Judge and shoot .410 buckshot, or .45 long colt if you are trying to inflict the most damage. Im an athletic guy so handling the recoil is not too bad. Many years ago in auto racing, there was a saying regarding power. For me, that is the Sig p226 9mm. In July, reports indicated that the top candidates in the final running for the new $17 million-dollar Modular Handgun System (MHS) contract to replace the current Beretta M9 included Glock's G17, the Sig Sauer P320, Smith & Wesson's M&P, and the new Beretta APX among others. The question isnt how many people die from being hit with a certain a round, but rather what do they do immediately after being hit?. Somebody needs to vet their sources of information and also use a little common sense. Id use either! Real world combatants or keyboard commandos. Once you run out of rounds, youre done. Frank K. Seems to me that when using the same style bullet in the 45 and 9mm the 45 would still beat the 9 in stopping power. But with the way things are going today I decided it was time, so I just bought S&W M&P 9 Shield. I believe the 45 ACP would scare many and they would rarely shoot to their capability. Why arent both so much better than .223? But a high-muzzle weapon shatters that bone into hundreds of microscopic pieces, in a way that cannot be repaired. 9mm capacity! They have to show the bean counters proof for the money to fund the switch of caliber. Asking that question around gun owners is like bringing up religion or politics at a party. I just got a glock30SF and im thinking of adding her to the g27 for my CC permit. Media in category "Human body" The following 64 files are in this category, out of 64 total. We have came a long ways with jackets, cores and construction of bullets in the last 50 + years. Youve been practicing with your weapon on a consistent basis. What I find more often than not is, in cases of 9mm shootings, unless its a head-shot or perfectly placed shot to the sternum, victims rarely drop where theyre shot and are often found blocks away from where the original shooting took place police actually have to trace blood droppings back to their origin to find the initial crime scene. But, this little word but often comes up in real life. I have never shot a people. Another reason why in war officers loved the 45 as for close infighting it usually too just 1or2 shots to land the enemy on the ground. Factors like these led to the military adopting the Colt .45 ACP pistol as its standard sidearm in 1911. The only thing caliber has to do with it is 9mm is size efficient for capacity. The 45 deer had busted bones and bullets still within them. WebIn real life the tissue damage of the .45 compared to the 9mm is much more and ingame atm the difference is minimal. I just bought a S&W M&P 9 Shield. Witch in reality are only good enough to fight yourself to a long gun I have 2 Henry levers that shoot the same .357 having 3 weapons. A round put through the central nervous system of a target is likely to be incapacitating regardless of the caliber chosen. Im in the process to actually buy one. Just came down from AK and bears and mad moose have been my biggest issue. The comments concerning shot placement are correct. It enters the human body at energies approaching the speed of light and His logic was that if there ever were a scene where they got into a firefight and one deputy ran out of ammo any of the others could provide him with one of their spare mags. I know the argument for +P with lighter bullets, but I settled on these because they meet my two most important criteria for defensive ammo penetration and accuracy. Clothing fibers can wrap the nose of a projectile, preventing expansion. You can have all the knockdown power in the world but unless you place it thats going to do the most damage then it doesnt matter if its a 9 millimeter or 45. Love it. According to a sweeping 2016 survey, there were, at that time, more guns in the hands of Americans than there are cars on the road. It enables struggling shooters to attain better weapon control/shot placement, and permits skilled shooters to be faster and more accurate. Anyway great comments to all. Im no expert but i know how it feels to be in a shoot out, first of all when it goes down you better have some kind of firearm i dont care if its a P shooter, 2nd the person will be placed in a situation where they will have to make a business decision when here a pop coming from you. I carry a number of different calibers depending on what Im wearing that day and where I intend to go; but I no longer even own a 9mm. I also do not understand why the M&P was disqualified, but it could be that other manufacturers guns have already been eliminated as well. So the moral of the story is: if youre 5 foot tall, and weigh a hundred pounds, the last thing you probably want to carry with you is a 1911. But for those of us that like to aim and make good hits Ill take the 45 as a primary with a compact 9 as a backup. Practice drawing the weapon, aiming it, and firing. So, have you experienced shooting someone at close range with each caliber to determine the stopping power of each round? I guarantee with proper shot placement, either round will do. I use a 1911 as thats what I learned on, prefer the way it feels in my hand. The pistol with speed loaders will get me to the riffels then game over if not over yet. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. More rounds the better. And since the FBI was the agency who failed in the first place well, why follow thier blind lead? We can, however, find the most destructive round we can handle and train with it regularly. I can concealed carry and the weight of my Ruger compact 9mm is about as heavy as I want. They should provide officers who can control the larger weapons a choice about which pistol they are permitted to carry. Just as in the case of the military, my agencies biggest determining factors for this decision were not anything to do with the performance of the rounds or the effectiveness for the safety of the officer. Any of these rounds will do the job in the hands of a skilled shooter, period. It also drops in Air Drops, rarely as Tier Chest loot, or very rarely spawn as Tier World loot. In Sicily had m14 auto and bi pod. I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. Was the 357 mag. Some bullets are so fast, they dont deliver the force of the bullet. What, is that like an every day occurrence? I find the heavy slide helps with the .40 recoil and keeps the barrel from jumping. It was by far the easiest serviced pistol in the field, go ahead and get the lighter frame lighter weight ceramic /plastic and all that junk its fine as long as youre in a urban environment. I checked him out, and he's legit as far as that title is concerned and where he works. I just make it my business to shoot all handgun cartridges well out to 25yards. I am sorry for your incounter. EVER! Shooting survivors and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son expensive protein shakes after he lost much of his stomach. When a handgun is bought for personal protection, whether in the home or on the street, its purpose is the application of deadly force to protect your own life, the lives of others, and to prevent serious physical harm. Have you ever saw the wound track from a .230 hst. Never held a weapon till boot camp. Cyst fluid rich in lipids and inflammatory factors is a characteristic pathological manifestation of ACP and may play a very important role in hypothalamic injury caused by tumors. I like both, so it is a matter of how balanced and comfortable is it when in use ? WebA 9mm -40 - 357sig -45 ACP all do about 11-13" penetration into the human body no temporary wound cavity, and the diamiter differnce is from 9mm(.355(.357 caliber)) to 11.5mm(.45 caliber). This was not a good CC carry eather so for a while I did not carry CC. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. John I agree, the Browning Black Label in 380 ACP is a superb gun. A .50 Desert Eagle is no good if you cannot carry it and get it out and shoot it accurately and fairly quickly, no matter what the knock-down power if you were able to hit anything with it. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. Now Im not a scientist, and comparisons of expanded 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP projectiles shows what appears to be little or insignificant difference in diameter; so I cant explain the results perhaps bullet weight plays a role too. Im sorry, but the .50 Barrett sucks there is no match grade ammo available for it. Most rounds fired do not hit anyone at all. Both really do not muster up for the Marines. Most of these wanna be gangsters are cowards and are used to shooting at people who dont have guns to shoot back. For you to dissect their writings may be fun but not productive. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. For the spray and pray that they teach nowadays the high cap 9mm is good. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. Yes, I know it was a +P round, but then, there arent any grizzly bears in my neck of the woods. F=MA is not applicable. The Marine Corps Times is not published by the Marine Corps. We carried 19 rounds of 9mm in combat. Witnessed it first hand. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition, it will cause greater trauma.. It might be bigger, but bigger isnt always better. Nobody I know whos had to use issue 9mm M882 Ball is terribly impressed with it, either for the way it penetrated light cover like auto bodiesadmittedly, if you are shooting at someone protected by an automobile chassis, you should have brought a rifle, if not a grenade launcher with HEAT rounds or something belt-fed with the black-tip ammo that have the depleted uranium coresor for the way bad people reacted to being shot with it, which was usually not at all for quite some time barring a hit to the brain or spinal cord, or multiple hits, as in the whole magazine and maybe another. This remained the norm in the FBI until May 2014. Even long range shots! This was not a good CC gun so I traded it for a S&W 39-2 9mm. I know they dont keep records like this; but if you could count all the rounds fired in a battle, and how many kills were made by each caliber; would that not be a better indicator of the efficiency of the caliber. Then they changed to .40S&W (once they realized how difficult it was for some agents to handle). Damage: 55. After receiving this wound, Platt initiated a devastating attack upon the surrounding FBI agents, killing two (including Agent Dove) and severely wounding two more. G27 with the 10 for EDC and G22 with 22 count mag for inside the house, 40 doesnt seem to have that much more pop than 9mm to me, and i have relatively small hands. Because you are making a decision based on the fact that something (9mm) didnt work. Missing it not an option. Thats funny. With the spine on the backside with the arteries running along it, coupled with the obesity of the fast food hoodlum, that penetration was considered more key. With all the discussion about hitting power of the big rounds, That is not the case with the new loads. Basically what I'm saying is the .50 is almost the same size as .45 and the tissue damage is near the same. He taught criminal law/procedure at the FBI Academy. One hit with any caliber has more stopping power than 100 misses with any caliber, type bullet or inherent accuracy. I would love to get my hands on the data and map it by cartridge. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. This translates to a simple formula for shooting success: practice, practice, practice. Thats just because most folks never have to shoot someone firing at them. 45 acp damage human body 45 acp damage human body on jun 11, 2022 on jun 11, 2022 The impact of the injury would depend on where the bullet went besides your stomach. Training, muscle memory, nerves, etc dictate to me, that the harder hitting rounds are far more apt to keep me going home in the morning. So modern ammo IS NOT the reason to switch back to the 9mm. But the US never officially ratified these protocols, and is not officially bound by them. If you use .22 mag, muzzle flash is pronounced and may have some fear factor with its use. How many decades are we going to have this debate? Now marine I hope your watching now instead of using glock 19 in a 9mm counterpart here is a better suggestion why dont you use a glock 21 4th gene to insure ur fellow colleges a better a faster on the spot accuracy with zero recoil it will enable them to be more successful in hitting targets. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. Give me a 45 any day! The role of the gun industry in Americas gun violence epidemic. Bottom line, if you come at me and I shoot you with my 9 mm or my 45, or my 380, its going to hurt like hell! The HRP is concerned with long-term health consequences of radiation exposure such as cancer, as well as adverse effects to the central nervous and cardiovascular systems. Core, you touch on something that I have often thought about. What type of bullet is being fired? Sign up for new product alerts, company updates, and more! If it doesnt get deleted for my impatience with thoughtless comments. SGT SmallwoodUSMC/LTC SmallwoodUSArmy retired. These features, along with superb marketing efforts, have made the 9mm the round of choice, not only for the armed forces, but also for most police departments in the U.S. It is often said in sports talk, that the game is a game of inches. This is also true in life and death gun battles like the FBI Miami shootout. Then get ready for a gunfight. Guy KEPT COMING and managed to shoot back twice. The damage was far too extensive. The projectile tears through the body causing tissue damage and creating a wound channel. My personal opinion is that the military has found that many recruits are unable to accurately fire the .45 and cannot manage the recoil. The bullet lands in the same place because the entire situation and milieu is what determines it. Regards Jim, Sorry for the typos are you speak to text because I cant text like my child. That use the same ammo is the way for me. Whats more, a temporary cavity measures volume that has been stretched, not volume that has been destroyed. Not to kill but enough to let us get to our guys or a firearms. .45 acp is a good round and I prefer it used in close quarter environments becuse it is heavier and pack more energy. After the FBI, he served as a Massachusetts Deputy Inspector Generaland is currently a deputy sheriff for Plymouth County, Massachusetts. The wider bullet also creates a bigger cavity in whatever it passes through. How does air resistance have ANYTHING to do with the terminal ballistics as they relate to penetration? CHEERS. Interesting. And if Im responsible enough to use a firearm to fight for my government, Im responsible enough to own a firearm to protect myself and loved ones. Handgun and Patrol Rifle Instructor, a graduate of Trident Concepts Concealed Carry Instructor course, and a Modern Samurai Project Endorsed Instructor. Web9mm vs 45 ACP, WE END THE DEBATE. Sad. Of the nearly 250 million guns owned by Americans at that time, somewhere between 40 and 50 million of them were handguns. The door has been opened and shut for good on John M. Browning's classic 1911 design. For those not in the military, go for what you want. The 45 ACP is my choice of a Heavy Hitter. Shot placement is often cited as a consideration when choosing the right handgun for self defense and for good reason its definitely important. Just imagine what it might have been like had you had to perform a reload in that situation? I just know the most important thing is to shoot a lot, and carry the gun you are most comfortable shooting. I still carry a Ruger P-97 in 45 ACP caliber. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. Bullets can also increase the surface area that transfers energy to targets by expanding, as in the case of hollow-point rounds. My next handgun will be either a Ruger SR 1911 or a Kimber 1911 clone. Select the option or tab named Internet Options (Internet Explorer), Options (Firefox), Preferences (Safari) or Settings (Chrome). Prefer a 9 mm. If you havent got JHP or ballistic tip bullets in the 9mm gun your in trouble. The pool of cartridges in the study are grouped which makes the data integrity less reliable but each group of larger calibers exhibit significant percentage better lethality. I love it. But thats me. Ask the Mafia. One of the techniques used by several mob hit men was to use a .22 caliber pistol placed in the soft spot behind and slightly belo Just one article about that here: http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/07/08/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/. The one magor factor that keeps deciding the outcome is if the victim or assailant has the actual ability to kill. I am older now, living in the city. The wider bullet also creates a bigger cavity in whatever it passes through. I am at a loss for words as I read the above two paragraphs like literally at a loss for words. If you cant always hunt effectively with it, is it big enough? I had a neighbor when I lived outside Fort Worth. Q-do you think your mind will change about +P in a 45 cal? Fire Rate: 1,000 rounds/minute. Soldiers and police officers are far more likely to engage multiple targets in extended shootouts with adversaries, and therefore have a much greater need for a high capacity pistol than I will in a self-defense scenario. It makes a bigger hole. True. However, it does suffer from the same issue as the .40s&w, and that is that its snappier in its recoil impulse. Good job! Source: A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. Youd be much better served with HOT 357 mag loads or a 44mag. .45 ACP Damage Body Shots Head Shots Sounds Firing (9mm) Firing (.45 ACP) Reloading Swapping To Rarity The Vector is a rare SMG that spawns mainly in Hatchet Cases in the Hydra Bunker and rarely in the Storm Bunker (10% chance). Penetration of this length and the tissue, blood vessel and organ damage/destruction that follows is vital to circulatory collapse. Of handgun owners alone, 63 percent owned these for the purpose of protecting themselves against other people, with another 20 percent owning them for protection against animals. Ill leave it at this and welcome any comments of common sense and or experience. Doctors later determined that this round was not survivable. Ive shot so many different weapons, started at the age of 11, hunted most of my life. So for over a couple hundred years size mattered in stopping power, or say incapacitating an opponent. Second Media Inc., 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. well lets fac the facts ere during th banna war the marines choose the 45 acp end of story. Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Riley, love your artical. Oh and dont give me the garbage about 9mm has come a long way since its inception. 3 more replies -8w7- 13 hr. Gimme a break! Mabe you are just faster and things work out like the movies. I personally dont find much difference in recoil between a compact 9mm and compact .40 S&W; but I recognize and am sympathetic to other shooters who do. If Im in my own home in a self-defense scenario, at any distance, Im armed with a 12 gauge, and the whole pistol capacity and power debate is moot. Sadly, most government decisions like this are primarily based on cost effectiveness, not cartridge performance or effectiveness; thats the main reason I quit using military or LE decisions as a factor in my own carry decisions. Only two factors are within your control: the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed. 9mm beats .45acp. Browse our site today and place your order with confidence. The fact is, 9mm is fast and cheap, .45acp is big and just as effective if not more, given the wound channel is gonna be much larger than that of a 9mm. In his 1989 treatise, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, Supervisory Special Agent Urey Patrick explained that the goal of an officer in a life-threatening shooting incident is to incapacitate the adversary as quickly as possible. Shot placement is the deciding factor. Can someone comment on this? Firing Modes: Semi-auto. Also ALL handgun calibers are susceptible to ricochet especially when compared to rifle rounds. Psychological factors play a much greater role. So they downvote actual biological functions here. You prefer the .45 for stopping power? Give SOCOM GLocks which shoot 9mm (Glocks are great guns and I dont have a problem with the 9mm, great cartridge especially with all the advancements over the last 30 years) as I was saying problem solved. thats a monster, 67 about 260 and has hands as big as a base ball mitt, when he carries concealed, he goes with a Glock 43 which looks like a toy in his very large hands. Police, f.b.i., military have smaller people with smaller hands that need to be accomadated. Im not going to begin to discuss the variables between the two calibers and cartridge designs but statistics released from DOJ shows that larger cartridges are more effective at stopping Humans per round on target. I carried an issue 45. Because of the dynamic and chaotic nature of officer-involved shootings, officers are trained to shoot at center mass of an assailants torso from whatever side/angle of the torso that presents itself. Experiences on the streets say otherwise. 7.62 leads the damage potential, followed by 5.56, followed by 45 and finally 9 mm. The above referenced expert needs to stick with whatever he may really be an expert at. On the other hand, a .22 that you can carry easily and put into operation quickly and shoot accurately is probably not a good defense gun/round because to do enough damage requires brain-shot accuracy with each shot. I have also read that the 124gr NATO round is a +P. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. For me the thing that has always solved this debate is simple. Vital organs sit deep within the human body, so penetration and permanent cavity volume are important factors. Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in New York Times reporter C.J. Startle affect. I know .45 is a good SD round against the two legged threats. Ive seen too many people want to hunt but do not have ability to take a animals life. Also SOCOM has been using hollowpoint ammunition for years, but primarily against unsanctioned terrorist personnel. He was a deputy sheriff. The difference can be seen with pistol rounds, as well. All righty then, I started with 38 caliber revolvers in the early 70s, 53 yrs later, since few people carry revolvers, capacity, I have bounced back and forth and keep ammo for both 9mm and 45. Probably not, but here is my take on the ol' 9mm vs 45 ACP debate. I am a classic ). Sources say Jimmy Lam used a TEC-9 style pistol, illegal to sell in the state for almost two decades. To ensure fragmentation would be to make a round so fragile that it would virtually eliminate penetratration. We had competant and caring armorers and shooting instructors ( These guys gave a fuck and went out of their way for you ). If you can fire without remorse. Has the Marine Corp's choice to transition from 45 ACP to 9mm duty pistols settled the debate on which caliber is better? Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. The Department of Defense has recently been taking a hard look at the sidearms and sidearm calibers issued to today's military personnel on the front lines. The gun was designed prior to WW1 and its main usage was close combat in regards to trench warfare. Bob. WebThe.45 acp proved an effective round with greatly improved stopping power. Both hit 15 first shot, .45 exploded watermelon leaving trails about 15 feet behind, 9mm put a hole in it nothing more. This gave the enemy a chance to still bury a spearhead in the shooters chest, before finally collapsing from internal damage and blood loss.
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